Interview with J. Michael Rothacker
Molly Dohrmann: This is Molly Dohrmann with the Peabody Oral History Project concerning the merger with Vanderbilt in 1979. Today's date is Thursday, January 26th, 2006 and the interview today in Peabody Library is Dr. J. Michael Rothacker, Associate Professor of Library Science at Peabody at the time of the merger. To begin please talk about your connection with Peabody and the capacity in which you served at the time of the merger with an overview of the Vanderbilt/Peabody situation at that time.
J. Michael Rothacker: OK. I came to Peabody in the fall of 1970. And I -- in the School of Library Science. I was kind of a -- kind of a utility man. I'd (inaudible) foundations, history of books and printing, bibliography, the social sciences, and the humanities and then, Ed -- Ed Gleaves who was the dean at Peabody from '67 to '86 and I jointly taught a course called Reading Interest and we -- we began what maybe the first, I don't know if it is or not, something they might want to do something about sometime, but a course on how to do library instruction. It involved having the students give lectures and we videotaped them and critiqued them and got into -- at that time library instruction in the late '70s was really beginning to boom and, like I said, we may have been the first (inaudible) formal program. We started with a one-hour course and then we expanded it to three. And I taught -- the whole time I was there. I even -- I even taught government documents, mostly because I didn't want anybody else to teach it at the time and I think I got one cataloging course which would -- began my professional library life as a cataloger. That was a mistake (laughter). Anyway, and I had been on the Peabody Library Committee a lot and I think maybe after the merger is when I became more or less a permanent chair of the Peabody Library Committee all the way up until when I left in I might have been chairing -- well, probably into about '88, I guess. But I think that started in the late '70s. And at having to do specifically with the merger and that period -- the immediate period that led up to the merger -- I was -- I was involved, at first, in what I guess we could call lobbying at the state legislature. When there was a possibility that we might merge with -- with Tennessee State University. And the faculty was pretty much united on that because it was sort of generally known that if we did, nobody would lose their jobs and (inaudible) what actually happened we don't know, but as it turned out, the legislature turned down the attempt anyway. It was kind of a long shot (inaudible). So that kind of, in a way, that sort of talks about the alternatives, to the merging with Vanderbilt question. Another alternative that was -- that was approached was some kind of union with Duke University and that, we all knew meant this is probably a really small portion of Peabody very possibly the Kennedy Center and research-based special ed. and psychology and (inaudible) very few people wanted to move to North Carolina, I think, anyway. And that would have left the physical plant and the (inaudible) Peabody people in limbo and so, as I said, I was one of the people who lobbied unsuccessfully. It was interesting though. I talked with several representatives and Senators. The one I remember most was Senator Avon Williams who was -- was and is considered now that he is now dead that he was sort of one of the giants of the black community in Nashville. That downtown campus of TSU is named for him. And he was very interesting, a nice guy, had a good sense of humor and he was very honest and he said, "I don't think this is gonna work." (laughter) But we talked, you know, for a while.
Rothacker: And then Ed, my -- I should say because this has to do with what we'll talk about later is that I received my Ph.D. in 1975 and I received tenure at Peabody -- it's a good thing I got into Peabody because I never would have gotten in to Vanderbilt (laughter). Not with what they want because I didn't do any research at all, I just taught and I got probably in '77, I think. I became an Associate Professor, so I was tenured -- tenured Associate Professor at the time of the merger. I know you have spoken with Ed Gleaves at -- as part of this project and Ed had been elected the president of the Peabody faculty, which he's -- which he says is one of the more interesting assignments he has had in his life. And as president he attended all the -- all the -- all the major meetings. The -- and the President Staff Association did too, but I don't remember who that was now. But Ed was my boss and we are still -- we are very close friends and we see each other about once a month or more, talk on the phone a lot and things. Anyway, Ed was the president and so he -- he was involved with the negotiations, representing the faculty and I was -- you know, I went to all the meetings, Ed presided and as I mentioned yesterday I was kind of an unofficial Sergeant-at-Arms and, actually, a couple of others, too. The ones who knew how many more people and we had these meetings way in the beginning when the -- when it was announced that Peabody was going to close or was going to merge or was going to do something. It wasn't going to stay the way it was. And then I once -- once the merger was reached with Vanderbilt and this is something I'll talk about at -- in more detail -- we said altogether that we would send 41 -- 41 faculty lost their jobs. Twenty-six of those were tenured. According to the American Association of University Professors, tenured faculty, when they are terminated due to a merger, closing of a school, something have the right to appeal that termination. And there has to be an elected committee of the tenured faculty who can remain, who could not lose their job to act as the appeals committee. I was -- and so they had to be elected -- I was elected to that committee and then I was elected -- I was elected assistant chair and then the chair left after about a week due to -- due to illness and so, I became the chair. And we -- we would most of the summer of 1979 there were of 26 tenured faculty who were terminated, six appealed and I'll into that again. So the reason I want to stop here is that we were -- one of the questions is -- is the relationship with Peabody with Vanderbilt beforehand.
Rothacker: I had little -- little direct contact with Vanderbilt before the merger the main contact between the library school and the university was through JUL -- through the Joint University Libraries, which was probably a unique institution. At that time, it was owned, really by Vanderbilt, Peabody and Scarritt. Actually Scarritt got kind of a free ride, I think, but the -- and we -- the library school always had very good relations -- very good relations with JUL. We had an internship program that even cemented things more closely. Some of my best students worked in a lot of places in the JUL system. And we -- we did use one of the large rooms in the old building that was not have been a bad library, it was one of our main classrooms and if he hadn't had that we would have been up the creek because we just didn't have any room and we had very big classes back then. I remember teaching humanities one summer to 65 people and anyway. That was before -- that was before we had a lot of competition in Tennessee and the southeast before the Library School at U.T. was accredited. But then our enrollment did start to go up then because they were about -- for in-state students, they cost about a fifth of what we did so and it wasn't worth it.
Rothacker: So, and so I was -- I believe I was at the time of the merger, I was Chairman of the Peabody Library Committee. I became a long-standing member of the -- of the overall Vanderbilt University Library Committee, but that was after the merger, OK, that was in the '80s. And we just had a lot of friends -- a lot of friends in JUL. Frank Grisham the director that the time of the merger was a good friend then and he is now and specifically, we led into JUL at the time of the merger. It might be good to -- I just started to think about this -- I didn't think about this yesterday, but -- and maybe Frank has mentioned some of this and possibly Ed has, I don't know, but at the time after the merger was announced and they were working it out and this happens with libraries, probably all over the world, at least a lot of places in the U.S. and especially in more or less prestigious elitist universities like Vanderbilt that the library is often led in the dark and real communication does not really exist because -- because Frank and the staff heard nothing from the Vanderbilt administration. I remember one morning Frank and Jordan Supanski (sp?) who was, at that point, Frank's administrative assistant and also, Jordan is a good friend of mine, and a couple of other people from the library staff came -- they had called the day before and I don't know whether they wanted to talk to Ed and me, but Ed wasn't there, but I was, so they wanted to come over. It was in the morning, it was upstairs in the library school I think and they just wanted to know what the hell was going on. (laughter) And then, you know, they knew that Ed and I were pretty deeply involved, especially Ed, but that I was -- I was, too. And had done the lobbying and all that kind of stuff. And so we, you know -- I filled them in, you know, as well as I could and then also Frank and I had a lot of private discussions, but the really strange thing because in all this -- the main thing they wanted to know was -- has -- what's going to be the position of JUL? And it hadn't been discussed at all and Ed said, "No, it hadn't." I remember at the time of the merger, when the agreements, I think, the memorandum, or whatever it's called, memorandum or, anyway, but the legal document that caused the merger, the night that that was signed, the Tennessee Library Association was having it's annual meeting. This was in April, I am pretty sure. That's when it usually is. At an opulent hotel and Frank was, at that time, the president of TLA and he had been off and on, you know, frequently. I think that was maybe the second or third time that he was, but anyway and, you know, we knew the merger was going to be signed that day, but Frank had heard nothing. Nothing came from the Vanderbilt administration, so the way that Frank found out what was really going to happen to JUL was that Ed got a copy of the agreement, Xeroxed it, called me, I ran down here it was probably -- it might have been Kirkland Hall, I forget just where it was now, but I pick it up and I took the copy out to Frank and that's the first time that he had heard anything official after it had already been signed and it just simply said, Joint University Library will become the Vanderbilt University Library and that was it. And I think it was one or two sentences, but he was never told, he was never -- as far as I know. Now, I could be wrong, but at the time that was the impression and that is kind of still my impression, but I kind of thought it might be good to mention that.
Dohrmann: Yeah, what did that mean for Scarritt?
Rothacker: I don't know. As -- as I understand it, as part of JUL, they were given a free ride. I don't think they contributed anything, only Vanderbilt and Peabody contributed operating funds, as far as I know. Now, course now, there is no Scarritt Library, you know, anymore because it has become a different kind of institution.
Rothacker: It continued as a library, but -- and one of our students was a librarian there for a while, but they sort of limped along and I think they just, as a whole college, their funding -- for the kind of program that they were trying to do, they wouldn't be able to make it. But, as far as I know, they got no more help from Vanderbilt, now I could be wrong about that. That I don't know. I am just making an assumption. (laughter) OK. That's -- I wanted to get that -- now I don't know whether Frank mentioned that, you know, about the merger, about how he found out --
Dohrmann: I am not sure I remember.
Rothacker: OK. Well, that's fine. And if our accounts on this tend to differ, I would take his -- (laughter)
Dohrmann: -- OK.
Rothacker: That's the way I remember it.
Rothacker: But, anyway.
Dohrmann: Do you want to talk about some of the key people in the merger?
Rothacker: I already mentioned Ed Gleaves as the -- as the elected chair of the Peabody faculty, he could really be called president, I guess. Alexander Heard was probably the strongest force in it. John Dunworth was the Peabody President and he is the prominent person in -- I would say, in most people's memory (inaudible). He kind of viewed the Peabody financial situation as worse than it was. I did hear that there was a lot of -- a lot of disagreement on the Peabody Board. One I can speak for who was definitely against closing the Peabody for any reason (inaudible) anybody else was Dr. Harold Ramer who was my boss for many years at a Volunteer State Community College. And Dr. Ramer was a Peabody alumnus and he was on the Peabody Board at the time of the merger. I do remember Ed saying that he was the only member of the Peabody Board in the formal discussions with Vanderbilt who's -- who -- who represented outside of Ed himself, but he was the only board member who was concerned about the Peabody faculty. Now Dr. Ramer is -- he retired -- I retired three months ago, he retired a couple months after I did, but he waited until he was 79 until he retired. And I -- I -- I respect his -- his honesty and his opinions very much and the -- we mentioned a little bit -- I had mentioned a little bit yesterday about Tom Stovall who was the Academic Vice President at Peabody at the time and a lot of people blamed Tom just because they wanted to blame somebody. And the -- a lot of us knew that Tom -- Tom had nothing to do with it, it was, you know, completely out of his -- out of his power and I think he was against it, but I -- but I'm not sure, but I think he was. So and I remember Ed and I and others defending him, you know, in conversations and things. In fact, well this is -- one thing Ed -- Ed, you know, I guess I could mention here to kind of give you an idea what -- how the feeling was like and maybe it would -- would this be a good time to mention the, you know, the reactions of people?
Rothacker: Well, there were, at that time, I believe there was about 150 faculty at Peabody. The vast majority of which were Ph.D.s. And we -- it started right around Valentine's Day in 1979. And then we started to meet and we met, and we met, and we met two sometimes three times a week. In the early meetings in HDL and, I think the later meetings were at Memorial, but they have different names, I think, now.
Dohrmann: The Hobbs Building over there --
Rothacker: -- Yeah, yeah the Hobbs Building and then the one right --
Dohrmann: -- Kennedy Center.
Rothacker: Right, yeah.
Dohrmann: Is that right?
Rothacker: Yeah. And we would, and of course, this was big news in Nashville and at these meetings usually we would take the first fifteen minutes to half an hour deciding whether or not to elect a president and I think we did a couple times, but especially, if I remember correctly I'm not -- somebody's memory might be faulty, but especially after the merger was announced with Vanderbilt, I don't think we did leave home. But I sort of mentioned yesterday but there was nothing more unruly and often unprincipled than 150 Ph.D.s in one room under pressure. A lot of them very concerned about keeping their jobs and because once the merger was announced with Vanderbilt, we knew that -- that Vanderbilt was not going to duplicate positions especially in arts and sciences and some of our very best people were in the arts and sciences. People like Kenneth Cooper and Bob Thomson and, in this case, they were both historians and some very sound people in the English Department. And so it -- we -- I think the meetings even intensified. We had more meetings, I believe, after the Vanderbilt merger because the cruel question was what was going to happen and I don't think there were any definite plans right at the beginning, but as it -- as things progressed we found out more and these meetings -- Peabody was not that big a place. One hundred and fifty faculty isn't that large but there were a lot of very intense research programs going on in addition to the teaching and, literally, some of those people we had never seen before -- before -- before we met them in the merger -- in the meeting because of the merger. And we used to say that they came up out of the basements of the rat labs and -- and every once in a while, somebody would raise a hand and Ed would look at me or at somebody else to see, "Who is that," you know, and a lot of times I didn't know. And the other people didn't know. They were kind of two or three of us, so I guess we were, more or less, like I said unofficial Sergeants-at-Arms. And I had to ask a black woman, this was way back at the beginning when we were going to maybe merge with TSU because we wanted to make sure that there wasn't anybody at those meetings who wasn't supposed to be, particularly after we decided not to let the president in and I think we asked this, but you better ask her if she's, because we hadn't seen her before and I asked her and, yeah, she was Peabody faculty and she wasn't real happy that I asked her and I don't blame her. But I think she was a psychologist, but anyway -- anyway there was a lot of acrimonious discussion in these big meetings and I believe there was -- that there was some -- there was some committees and there were some that just wouldn't accept any moves on the part of Vanderbilt at all and there was a lot of bitterness there. I don't think there is anybody who isn't talking to me because of the merger, but there are some who are not talking to Ed. Ed had to preside over this monkey fests and, man, it was a rough year for him and there -- I think there were a couple who have since died who -- who never spoke to Ed again and Ed, you know, I think Ed was willing, you know, in all cases to speak. But anyway, one and I hesitated to mention this because I'm kind of involved in it, but this will maybe give you an idea of a feeling in those meetings. I think this was after the announcement of the Vanderbilt merger. I am pretty sure. There was a -- people were frustrated and they wanted to get some kind of action and, I guess, some kind of revenge and there was a motion for the faculty to censure John Dunworth that wouldn't have meant anything anyway, but they wanted to do it because, you know, censure him for what? (inaudible) But that went -- that carried unanimously, I think. I think we all felt that way, but then there was a motion to censure Tom Stovall who I had mentioned before, the Academic Vice President who was able to (inaudible). It was a voice -- it was a voice vote. Ed said, "Thank God I couldn't vote," because he was the president, you know. It was a voice vote with yays or nays. I and two others said nay, all the rest of them, you know, said yay. They censured Tom Stovall and two others were new, new faculty members that had only been there a year and they were, what did Tom do, you know, and I -- of course, I had been there for a long time, but I was not about to vote against Tom Stovall and I said nay and then somebody called, "We want to see the hands of those who voted -- " I mean that's the way it was. It was that heated and that angry, you know, because most people, if they stop to think about it, Tom didn't have a damn thing to do with it, you know, but anyway. So, they said -- but OK -- show your hands those of you who voted nay, so I put my hand up and the other two and there were just three of us and -- and -- and right after that we went in the bathroom and Ed said, "Boy, I'm proud of you." (laughter) OK, thanks Ed, maybe nobody will talk to me for the rest of the day, but -- people didn't hold a grudge, you know, against me for that. I think I might have heard maybe a couple comments later, but, you know, it didn't amount to anything. Because I was elected to that committee after that happened, so anyway. But I want to mention that because it kind of gives an idea --
Dohrmann: It does.
Rothacker: -- what the atmosphere was like.
Rothacker: And it was, you know, I think our appetites dwindled I remember holding my stomach a lot.
Dohrmann: Yeah, yeah.
Rothacker: But OK, that -- and anyway Tom Stovall and I are still good friends and he's -- he was -- he went onto regular education on the faculty education faculty of Peabody after the merger.
Dohrmann: OK. Do you want to talk about anymore of the -- it sounds like the main negative is what happened to the faculty.
Dohrmann: And where there other things that you think were negative before the merger?
Rothacker: As -- as a result of the merger?
Rothacker: Yeah the -- as far as most of us understood, it was that the Peabody faculty who would be terminated would be those who would be duplicated at Vanderbilt and those were primarily in arts and sciences. However, Peabody had a strong studio art program and a very strong music program, one of the -- one of the strongest music schools in the southeast. And Vanderbilt had neither one of them. Vanderbilt had an art history program, but it didn't have a -- it didn't have a studio program, but they did cut all the art studio people lost their jobs all except for a very few of the music people lost their jobs. Vanderbilt didn't have a music school but, part of Peabody was Blair -- Blair Music Academy Conservatory for kids, elementary, secondary kids and so, as I understand it, the major support -- financial support came from the -- I can't think of it -- his wife's maiden name but David K.,Pat Wilson who were extremely wealthy political power in Nashville. Chairman of the Vanderbilt board at the time. Potter, yeah, his wife's name was Potter. And he somehow was able to -- now, this was sort of common knowledge at the time, and I could be wrong about some of the details. I heard a lot of this sort of second -- second-hand, but he pressed for the dissolution of the Peabody Music School, but the taking of Blair into Vanderbilt and building it into church (inaudible) music program. I think, if I remember correctly, I am not sure, I think some of the Peabody music faculty were also faculty at Blair and I think some of them went -- went to Vanderbilt, didn't lose their jobs. But the vast majority of the music school did and that's -- that rankled and it's for me and for a lot of others it still rankles and the -- and it was 27 years ago almost. And anyway, another thing that was -- that was well, it's understandable, but Vanderbilt had sort of made this declaration of no -- or at least implied that they would terminate Peabody faculty who were duplicated at Vanderbilt. That was true of in most cases, with the exception of Psychology and that department -- that Peabody department was not terminated, nobody lost their jobs because and we all believed that well, so there were two psychology departments at Vanderbilt. One at arts and sciences at Vanderbilt and one at Peabody. And the -- we all knew the main reason was that Peabody Psychology Department brought in an awful lot of grant money, a huge amount and also the Kennedy Center was attached. And Vanderbilt wasn't about to lose that so, therefore, there were two psychology departments. On the plus side and I talked a little bit about this yesterday, I think, well, OK (inaudible) but I was so close to this I didn't even think about it is that the library school got closed and we were saved at first, but when -- after Alexander Heard retired and Wyatt became the chancellor we all were kind of concerned that Vanderbilt kind of looked at the library school as kind of a -- kind of an upper-class trade school because we didn't produce research. And, you know, we knew our main goal was to teach. We were -- we were making money it was, you know, as far as we knew, we were not, you know, we were not losing money, but we believed that Vanderbilt wanted -- Vanderbilt wanted the prestige of a research operation and if they did they would have to hire research Ph.D.s to do that. And so they -- they decided to close the library school as we -- as we talked about yesterday. I think I taught the last class in the summer of '88. It was because (inaudible) had already retired. Will Clause and I were the only kind of permanent faculty members at that time. Ed had left because it was announced in '86 and I believe it was '86 that Ed left to become state librarian and in the meantime Mrs. Harmon, a school librarian, had retired. Frances Cheney had retired. There is one thing -- I just happened to think -- that another connection between Peabody and Vanderbilt before the merger was and this happened in other departments, too, I believe. But one member of our faculty, William Bernard Jackson was full-time on our faculty, but he also had a part-time appointment as Vanderbilt in the Latin American Studies Program.
Rothacker: So, the -- the -- and as I had mentioned yesterday there was an attempt on the part of Bill Hawley, who was a Peabody dean to try to keep the library school going on a -- going for a one-track school library accreditation from ALA. We didn't have a school librarian on the faculty. We figured the cheapest way to -- the cheapest way to get one was to make one out of me and I was -- had my Ph.D. but you have to be a certified teacher to be a school librarian, so I got my Master's in English Education through the Peabody then I did my student teaching out at McGavock High School. The -- and then -- but then -- but then Bill Hawley resigned his, resigned as dean and then Vanderbilt dropped the whole idea and then I was able to stay here until '90, but there was no position and I got a -- I believe I got a good deal from Vanderbilt. Then one of the things and I just, which is very interesting -- you might have heard this from Ed or possibly from some other people, but at the closing of the library school Ambridge (sp?), the alumni of the library school, very strongly and the -- and the donations just from library school -- library school graduates just practically disappeared. And what came out was -- what we learned was that not in terms, in terms of amounts of money because we are talking about librarians, who weren't making that much money, anyway. But in terms of percentage of -- percentage of donors from the different departments and schools at Peabody the library school was the highest.
Rothacker: Yeah, it was the highest percentage that -- course it never really bothered Vanderbilt. Like I said we are not talking about a whole lot of money, but they -- Vanderbilt did lose a lot of good will, I think, you know, because of all this. OK. It -- the positive things, I think, were the resources that Vanderbilt was able to put in what was left of Peabody and Peabody now has the number one, as I understand it, the number one special ed. program in the country.
Rothacker: And it's very high in some other areas and it's undergraduate program is also very strong.
Dohrmann: To go back just for a minute, do you want to say anything about the financial situation of Peabody at the time of the merger?
Rothacker: Well, I just, I don't know a whole lot about it. Apparently, Dunworth was -- didn't -- didn't think this school could make it and as I -- well, I'm sure they did, I don't want to make any comments, but John Dunworth was the President of Peabody at the time. And he -- he approached the board -- the Peabody Board because the school got to do something and there were a lot who didn't feel that -- that the financial situation was that bad -- on the board and then off the board and when the -- during the Memorandum of Agreement, it was called, I think, Vanderbilt paid, I guess the Peabody Board, I don't know really where that money went to, you know, but 11 million, which even in 1979 was about the biggest sort of land grab that anybody could think of. I mean, because, you know, when we heard that, we said, "What" you know. (laughter) And so that's about all I know, really.
Dohrmann: OK. Do you have any other stories about Peabody and the merger that you want to share with us?
Rothacker: Well, yeah, I'll and -- and we'll, yeah -- I'll try to make this pretty quick. The -- getting back to the results of the merger with Vanderbilt it was said of the 41 faculty who -- who lost their jobs, 26 of those were tenured and according to the AUP rules, they had to write to an appeal. Six of them appealed, the cases were heard by an elected committee of the Peabody faculty -- tenured Peabody faculty -- who remained. I was elected to the committee and as I mentioned before the -- we elected a chair and then she -- and we elected a vice chair and I was elected vice chair, but the woman who was the chair, Barbara Wallston who is since deceased. I believe we came in the next week and I became the chair and let me mention, all this began in early May, I believe. Our committee met, I think two or three times a week. It almost seemed like everyday, but -- and it -- I am trying to think of it, it probably lasted about a month so, it was just about over by the time summer school started, which summer school in the library school was a -- always a mad house because we had all these school librarians coming back and our enrollment would go way up in the summer, but I think it was mostly done by around the beginning of June. It was the month of May, I believe and, as I recall, the other members of the committee and -- I don't remember all of them. One was Bill Force who is since deceased. He -- he had been the Administrative Vice President at Peabody and then there was Vicki Wiscoe (sp?), who was still on the faculty at -- at I don't believe she has retired yet in the educa -- in education. Sam Ashcroft who had -- he is retired, but I saw Sam a couple years ago, I think. (pause) Howard...(pause) And he's been a good friend of mine -- I am trying to think of his last name now. Howard starts with an S.
Rothacker: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, thanks. Howard Sandler, yeah. In fact, Howard, I was really glad he was on that committee. And I think Jerry Park from education, (inaudible) that was from education. They were mostly education and I think Bill Force had already left administration and was already on the education faculty and I think Jerry Park (sp?) and he's in education also. And we -- proceedings were taken very seriously, we had to comply with AAUP guidelines, which required that a court stenographer take all the proceedings. There were, I believe Vanderbilt had a lawyer and some other people who appealed had a lawyer -- had lawyers. We, as I said there were six out of the twenty-six who appealed and we all kind of breathed a sigh of relief on that, but and we felt that five out of the six made very good cases for being reinstated. One, and I don't remember exactly just why now, but -- but one we did not so we recommended to the Vanderbilt administration that these five people be retained and Vanderbilt denied us on four of the cases and on the fifth person they gave one fourth of one position and that person told him to stuff it. (laughter) And I just, you know, after the cases were heard we disbanded. It was a lot of pressure. It was -- but that's the toughest committee I've ever learned and I would -- I think what got me through it was -- was my reading The Complete Sherlock Holmes and I had read a lot of stories before, but I'll tell you what (inaudible). It was about like -- about like that.
Dohrmann: Anything else?
Rothacker: I -- I don't think so. Thank you very much.
Dohrmann: Thank you very much.